Tiny-Soldiers - Tabletop und mehr!

Zitat von »lehman«

Die Römer scheinen tatsächlich nicht nur Ps, sondern auch Bogenschützen gehabt zu haben. Ob nun einige Einheiten ax sagitaria, oder (vielleicht aus Ostrom überstellte???) Syrische Ax, jedenfalls Bw (o), nicht nur Ps.

Zitat von »lehman«

Zugleich halten sich die Römer, Westfranken etc. im Norden auch dank des Geländes gegen Gepiden (und mehr Bw als die Gepiden haben sie jedenfalls...),

Zitat von »lehman«

jedenfalls bräuchte man eine große Platte, um die Bewegungen und unwägbarkeiten korrekt zu simulieren (3,60 x 180) und jede Menge zu Beginn versteckter Truppen sowie unklarheit der beiden Seiten, was der andere jeweils hat, sowie ein Incentive, zu attackieren, statt sich defensiv einzugraben... (römische Bogenschützen könnten eins sein....).

Zitat von »lehman«

(der jetzt noch auf weisen Rat des Leosthenes wartet, nachdem er von der -vollkommen ungewohnt selbst durchgeführten Internetrecherche- geschwächt darnider sinkt, zum Glück bin ich schon im Krankenhaus ;-)

Zitat von »additz«

Hallo Leosthenes,

die Franken (hüben und drüben) hast Du unterschlagen, wie auch die Burgunder, die sich den Hunnen angeschlossen hatten - oder werden die bei Jordanes nicht erwähnt ...
(ich hab' da immer noch nicht nachgelesen - ich gestehe es ...)

Lt. meiner Info ...

... hatten die Gepiden (ich weiß seltsam!) wie auch die Burgunder und Franken keinerlei auf Seiten der Hunnen nur Infanterie dabei ...
Nur die Hunnen und die Ostgoten hatten Reiterei.

... hatten die Römer, Franken und Burgunder der Gegenseite nur Infanterie
Nur die Westgoten und die Alanen hatten Reiterei ...

Ob das stimmt/schlüssig ist?

Zitat von »additz«

Hallo Leosthenes,

die Franken (hüben und drüben) hast Du unterschlagen, wie auch die Burgunder, die sich den Hunnen angeschlossen hatten - oder werden die bei Jordanes nicht erwähnt ...
(ich hab' da immer noch nicht nachgelesen - ich gestehe es ...)

Zitat von »Jordanes, The Origin and Deeds of the Goths«

During this peace Attila was lord over all the Huns and almost the sole earthly ruler of all the tribes of Scythia; a man marvellous for his glorious fame among all nations.…when his brother Bleda, who ruled over a great part of the Huns, had been slain by his treachery, Attila united all the people under his own rule. Gathering also a host of the other tribes which he then held under his sway, he sought to subdue the foremost nations of the world--the Romans and the Visigoths. His army is said to have numbered five hundred thousand men. …

And so a countless host was led forth by Theodorid, king of the Visigoths, who sent home four of his sons, namely Friderich and Eurich, Retemer and Mimnerith, taking with him only the two elder sons, Thorismud and Theodorid, as partners of his toil. …

On the side of the Romans stood the Patrician Aëtius, on whom at that time the whole Empire of the West depended; a man of such wisdom that he had assembled warriors from everywhere to meet them on equal terms. Now these were his auxiliaries: Franks, Sarmatians, Armoricians, Liticians, Burgundians, Saxons, Riparians, Olibriones (once Romans soldiers and now the flower of the allied forces), and some other Celtic or German tribes. And so they met in the Catalaunian Plains, which are also called Mauriacian, extending in length one hundred leuva, as the Gauls express it, and seventy in width. Now a Gallic leuva measures a distance of fifteen hundred paces. That portion of the earth accordingly became the threshing-floor of countless races. The two hosts bravely joined battle. Nothing was done under cover, but they contended in open fight.…

Sangiban, king of the Alani, smitten with fear of what might come to pass, had promised to surrender to Attila, and to give into his keeping Aureliani, a city of Gaul wherein he dwelt. When Theodorid and Aëtius learned of this, they cast up great earthworks around that city before Attila's arrival and kept watch over the suspected Sangiban, placing him with his tribe in the midst of their auxiliaries. …

The armies met, as we have said, in the Catalaunian Plains. The battle field was a plain rising by a sharp slope to a ridge, which both armies sought to gain; for advantage of position is a great help. The Huns with their forces seized the right side, the Romans, the Visigoths and their allies the left, and then began a struggle for the yet untaken crest. Now Theodorid with the Visigoths held the right wing and Aëtius with the Romans the left. They placed in the centre Sangiban (who, as said before, was in command of the Alani), thus contriving with military caution to surround by a host of faithful troops the man in whose loyalty they had little confidence. For one who has difficulties placed in the way of his flight readily submits to the necessity of fighting. On the other side, however, the battle line of the Huns was arranged so that Attila and his bravest followers were stationed in the centre. In arranging them thus the king had chiefly his own safety in view, since by his position in the very midst of his race he would be kept out of the way of threatening danger. The innumerable peoples of the divers tribes, which he had subjected to his sway, formed the wings. Amid them was conspicuous the army of the Ostrogoths under the leadership of the brothers Valamir, Thiudimer and Vidimer, nobler even than the king they served, for the might of the family of the Amali rendered them glorious. The renowned king of the Gepidae, Ardaric, was there also with a countless host, and because of his great loyalty to Attila, he shared his plans. For Attila, comparing them in his wisdom, prized him and Valamir, king of the Ostrogoths, above all the other chieftains. Valamir was a good keeper of secrets, bland of speech and skilled in wiles, and Ardaric, as we have said, was famed for his loyalty and wisdom. Attila might well feel sure that they would fight against the Visigoths, their kinsmen. Now the rest of the crowd of kings (if we may call them so) and the leaders of various nations hung upon Attila's nod like slaves, and when he gave a sign even by a glance, without a murmur each stood forth in fear and trembling, or at all events did as he was bid. Attila alone was king of all kings over all and concerned for all.

So then the struggle began for the advantage of position we have mentioned. Attila sent his men to take the summit of the mountain, but was outstripped by Thorismud and Aëtius, who in their effort to gain the top of the hill reached higher ground and through this advantage of position easily routed the Huns as they came up.

Now when Attila saw his army was thrown into confusion by this event, he thought it best to encourage them by an extemporaneous address on this wise: "Here you stand, after conquering mighty nations and subduing the world. I therefore think it foolish for me to goad you with words, as though you were men who had not been proved in action. Let a new leader or an untried army resort to that. It is not right for me to say anything common, nor ought you to listen. For what is war but your usual custom? Or what is sweeter for a brave man than to seek revenge with his own hand? It is a right of nature to glut the soul with vengeance. Let us then attack the foe eagerly; for they are ever the bolder who make the attack. Despise this union of discordant races! To defend oneself by alliance is proof of cowardice. See, even before our attack they are smitten with terror. They seek the heights, they seize the hills and, repenting too late, clamor for protection against battle in the open fields. You know how slight a matter the Roman attack is. While they are still gathering in order and forming in one line with locked shields, they are checked, I will not say by the first wound, but even by the dust of battle. Then on to the fray with stout hearts, as is your wont. Despise their battle line. Attack the Alani, smite the Visigoths! Seek swift victory in that spot where the battle rages. For when the sinews are cut the limbs soon relax, nor can a body stand when you have taken away the bones. Let your courage rise and your own fury burst forth! Now show your cunning, Huns, now your deeds of arms! Let the wounded exact in return the death of his foe; let the unwounded revel in slaughter of the enemy. No spear shall harm those who are sure to live; and those who are sure to die Fate overtakes even in peace. And finally, why should Fortune have made the Huns victorious over so many nations, unless it were to prepare them for the joy of this conflict. Who was it revealed to our sires the path through the Maeotian swamp, for so many ages a closed secret? Who, moreover, made armed men yield to you, when you were as yet unarmed? Even a mass of federated nations could not endure the sight of the Huns. I am not deceived in the issue;--here is the field so many victories have promised us. I shall hurl the first spear at the foe. If any can stand at rest while Attila fights, he is a dead man." Inflamed by these words, they all dashed into battle.

And although the situation was itself fearful, yet the presence of their king dispelled anxiety and hesitation. Hand to hand they clashed in battle, and the fight grew fierce, confused, monstrous, unrelenting--a fight whose like no ancient time has ever recorded. There such deeds were done that a brave man who missed this marvellous spectacle could not hope to see anything so wonderful all his life long. For, if we may believe our elders, a brook flowing between low banks through the plain was greatly increased by blood from the wounds of the slain. It was not flooded by showers, as brooks usually rise, but was swollen by a strange stream and turned into a torrent by the increase of blood. Those whose wounds drove them to slake their parching thirst drank water mingled with gore. In their wretched plight they were forced to drink what they thought was the blood they had poured from their own wounds.

Here King Theodorid, while riding by to encourage his army, was thrown from his horse and trampled under foot by his own men, thus ending his days at a ripe old age. But others say he was slain by the spear of Andag of the host of the Ostrogoths, who were then under the sway of Attila. This was what the soothsayers had told to Attila in prophecy, though he understood it of Aëtius. Then the Visigoths, separating from the Alani, fell upon the horde of the Huns and nearly slew Attila. But he prudently took flight and straightway shut himself and his companions within the barriers of the camp, which he had fortified with wagons. A frail defence indeed; yet there they sought refuge for their lives, whom but a little while before no walls of earth could withstand. But Thorismud, the son of King Theodorid, who with Aëtius had seized the hill and repulsed the enemy from the higher ground, came unwittingly to the wagons of the enemy in the darkness of night, thinking he had reached his own lines. As he was fighting bravely, someone wounded him in the head and dragged him from his horse. Then he was rescued by the watchful care of his followers and withdrew from the fierce conflict. Aëtius also became separated from his men in the confusion of night and wandered about in the midst of the enemy. Fearing disaster had happened, he went about in search of the Goths. At last he reached the camp of his allies and passed the remainder of the night in the protection of their shields.

At dawn on the following day, when the Romans saw the fields were piled high with bodies and that the Huns did not venture forth, they thought the victory was theirs, but knew that Attila would not flee from the battle unless overwhelmed by a great disaster. Yet he did nothing cowardly, like one that is overcome, but with clash of arms sounded the trumpets and threatened an attack. He was like a lion pierced by hunting spears, who paces to and fro before the mouth of his den and dares not spring, but ceases not to terrify the neighborhood by his roaring. Even so this warlike king at bay terrified his conquerors. Therefore the Goths and Romans assembled and considered what to do with the vanquished Attila. They determined to wear him out by a siege, because he had no supply of provisions and was hindered from approaching by a shower of arrows from the bowmen placed within the confines of the Roman camp. But it was said that the king remained supremely brave even in this extremity and had heaped up a funeral pyre of horse trappings, so that if the enemy should attack him, he was determined to cast himself into the flames, that none might have the joy of wounding him and that the lord of so many races might not fall into the hands of his foes.

Now during these delays in the siege, the Visigoths sought their king and the king's sons their father, wondering at his absence when success had been attained. When, after a long search, they found him where the dead lay thickest, as happens with brave men, they honored him with songs and bore him away in the sight of the enemy. You might have seen bands of Goths shouting with dissonant cries and paying the honors of death while the battle still raged. Tears were shed, but such as they were accustomed to devote to brave men. It was death indeed, but the Huns are witness that it was a glorious one. It was a death whereby one might well suppose the pride of the enemy would be lowered, when they beheld the body of so great a king borne forth with fitting honors. And so the Goths, still continuing the rites due to Theodorid, bore forth the royal majesty with sounding arms, and valiant Thorismud, as befitted a son, honored the glorious spirit of his dear father by following his remains.

When this was done, Thorismud was eager to take vengeance for his father's death on the remaining Huns, being moved to this both by the pain of bereavement and the impulse of that valor for which he was noted. Yet he consulted with the Patrician Aëtius (for he was an older man and of more mature wisdom) with regard to what he ought to do next. But Aëtius feared that if the Huns were totally destroyed by the Goths, the Roman Empire would be overwhelmed, and urgently advised him to return to his own dominions to take up the rule which his father had left. Otherwise his brothers might seize their father's possessions and obtain the power over the Visigoths. In this case Thorismud would have to fight fiercely and, what is worse, disastrously with his own countrymen. Thorismud accepted the advice without perceiving its double meaning, but followed it with an eye toward his own advantage. So he left the Huns and returned to Gaul. Thus while human frailty rushes into suspicion, it often loses an opportunity of doing great things.

In this most famous war of the bravest tribes, one hundred and sixty five thousand are said to have been slain on both sides, leaving out of account fifteen thousand of the Gepidae and Franks, who met each other the night before the general engagement and fell by wounds mutually received, the Franks fighting for the Romans and the Gepidae for the Huns.

Zitat von »lehman«

Zitat von »additz«

Lt. meiner Info ...

... hatten die Gepiden (ich weiß seltsam!) wie auch die Burgunder und Franken keinerlei auf Seiten der Hunnen nur Infanterie dabei ...
Nur die Hunnen und die Ostgoten hatten Reiterei.

... hatten die Römer, Franken und Burgunder der Gegenseite nur Infanterie
Nur die Westgoten und die Alanen hatten Reiterei ...

Ob das stimmt/schlüssig ist?

woher hast Du das?

Mal nur dass, was im Internet steht (wo - auch - immer- die -das- hernehmen...)

Die Gepiden werden eigentlich gar nicht beschrieben, ausser das es Gepiden sind (ich dachte die seine alle wb oder kn (f), dass die irre viel Bw (i) haben dürfen überascht mich.

Zitat von »lehman«

neben anderen kommt eine der auf fanaticus hinterlegten Quellen,nämlich
http://www.wargames.co.uk/Library/ArticlesH/Chalons.html
zu dem interessanten Schluss, dass Aetius ein double envelopement geplant hat.

Zitat von »additz«

Zitat von »lehman«

... Die Gepiden werden eigentlich gar nicht beschrieben, ausser das es Gepiden sind (ich dachte die seine alle wb oder kn (f), dass die irre viel Bw (i) haben dürfen überascht mich. ...

Naja ... die Gepidenliste erlaubt 15-36 Bw oder Ps WENN Infanterie aufgestellt wird ... (wie Leostehnes ja schon erwähnt hat)

Schau mal hier ...

Da steht unter Die beiden Heere:

... Die Hunnen waren, wie üblich, beritten und mit Speer, Keule und Seilschlinge bewaffnet sowie mit ihrer wichtigsten Waffe, dem speziell gefertigten Reiterbogen. Rüstung wurde in der Regel keine getragen, lediglich ein kleiner runder Lederschild wurde zur Verteidigung benutzt. Anders war es bei den germanischen Vasallen. Außer den Ostgoten, von deren Kontingent etwa ein Drittel aus Reitern bestand, waren alle Fußsoldaten. ...

...

Aetius' Heer bestand etwa je zur Hälfte aus seinen römischen, fränkischen und burgundischen Kämpfern auf der einen, sowie den westgotischen Kriegern auf der anderen Seite. Dazu kamen einige Tausend Alanen. Römer, Franken und Burgunder bildeten nur Infanterie.

Gruss additz

Zitat von »lehman«

und teilweise ziemlich abstrus

Zitat von »additz«

Zitat von »Ariovist«

...Dem stimme ich gnadenlos zu

Da wird vor sich hergeplappert, was wohl als Beipackzettel bei irgend welchen Computerspielen beipacken mag. ...

Meeeeinn Gott - keiner hat behauptet, dass Wikipedia den Anspruch auf wissenschaftlich fundierte und penibel recherchierte Artikel erheben kann -
es war ein erster Ansatz (für mich) auch um hier die Diskussion in's Rollen zu bringen ...

Zitat von »additz«

Zitat von »Ariovist«

... nach dem ich das hier eingeworfen habe, kommt Ihr eigentlich mit Amazon oder Google weiter - oder wartet ab, bis Leosthenes der Geduldsfaden reisst!

Danke für den Tipp - die Strategie, auf Leosthenes ausdünnenden Faden scheint mir auch vielversprechend zu sein (auch weil ich vermute, dass ihm solche Dinge Spaß machen !?)